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- Stories From The States
- North Carolina
Applying for pistol permit after 12/1/15
- Thread starter BBGun
- Start date Dec 8, 2015
- Dec 8, 2015
**Effective December 1, 2015, North Carolina General Statute 14-404(e1) requires applicants to sign a release of court orders concerning mental health and capacity for pistol purchase permits. **You MUST come in to the Sheriff’s Office within five (5) business days after you have completed the online portion of the application. Your application process will not begin until this final step has been completed. Click to expand...
- Dec 9, 2015
So today I went to downtown Raleigh, signed the form, and asked if the receptionist knew how long they were taking to process. She said she didn't know, this is a brand new process and it depends on how backed-up the county clerk was. I'm still not sure what difference the state is doing now that it couldn't do previously. It didn't say they could look into medical records, it says they can look into my court records regarding mental illness. Anyone?
BBGun said: It didn't say they could look into medical records, it says they can look into my court records regarding mental illness . Anyone? Click to expand...
BC, et al., instead of using a worthless scrap of outdated piece of paper for reference... what say we reference DOJ's AG 'guidance', dtd dec 15, until al gore's internet catches up with the appropriate reference on the statutes sites.... http://www.ncdoj.gov/getdoc/32344299-a2a7-4ae5-99fd-9018262f64ac/NC-Firearms-gun-Laws.aspx bottom of page 9, i believe is the reference you are seeking. ipse
solus said: BC, et al., instead of using a worthless scrap of outdated piece of paper for reference... what say we reference DOJ's AG 'guidance', dtd dec 15, until al gore's internet catches up with the appropriate reference on the statutes sites.... ipse Click to expand...
- Dec 11, 2015
Just a bump here to say I'm still waiting. Haven't heard a word.
I just checked my online status and it is still stuck at "assigning to processor shortly..." after 5 days. I called records at "919-856-6949" and was told they have over 700 waiting and I probably won't hear anything "for a few more days". This is like having a 1 week wait law. I suppose if I got my concealed permit, I wouldn't be waiting, correct?
- Dec 15, 2015
BBGun said: I just checked my online status and it is still stuck at "assigning to processor shortly..." after 5 days. I called records at "919-856-6949" and was told they have over 700 waiting and I probably won't hear anything "for a few more days". This is like having a 1 week wait law. I suppose if I got my concealed permit, I wouldn't be waiting, correct? Click to expand...
dmatting said: when you apply for your chp, you wait a whole lot longer. if you already had a ppp in hand, you wouldn't be waiting either. i would suggest getting as many as you can at one time cuz they are good for 5 years. Click to expand...
- Dec 16, 2015
Pistol Permits were approved yesterday...so it took a week. I got two this time. Wasn't sure what the maximum was or if I could just get them to bump the number they printed out. I sent off for my VA non-resident CHP today. From what I understand it's not good for purchasing pistols, but there is carry reciprocity.
BBGun said: Pistol Permits were approved yesterday...so it took a week. I got two this time. Wasn't sure what the maximum was or if I could just get them to bump the number they printed out. I sent off for my VA non-resident CHP today. From what I understand it's not good for purchasing pistols, but there is carry reciprocity. Click to expand...
solus said: why am i confused...reside in NC and are going after VA non resident permit? Click to expand...
BBGun said: I know it sounds weird, but it's really just time constraints. My wife is quadriplegic and I have no one to stay with her for 8+ hours while I take another class. I could test out of the shooting portion as I've already practiced with those targets & was stricter with myself than the test would be. But there is still class time. In VA, my NRA pistol class certificate already qualifies me for their permit. I can read NC rules online I assume, like "must notify". Click to expand...
solus said: if you have your NRA basic pistol cert apply for FLs ipse Click to expand...
BBGun said: OK. I'll look into it, thanks. I was told to get "as many as I can". Can you explain the rationale for that? Is it just to make sure you're covered for most states? Click to expand...
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Pistol Purchase Permit ( Movement )
- Thread starter 1stSPWAR
- Start date Apr 26, 2016
Much has been written about many counties in North Carolina about the lack of Speed in the processing of Pistol Purchase Permits as well as the Concealed Carry Permits. My County ( Mecklenburg ) which is the largest of the 100 Counties in North Carolina has been brutally slow in the processing phase since the new law requiring Mental Health background checks were put into place. I for one ran out of Pistol Purchase Permits in January...I have always bought the maximum allowable number of 3. February 2nd 2016 I applied On Line for 3 more....February 5th 2016 I went to the Mecklenburg County Sheriffs Office to sign the Mental Health Screening Check Release Form in person , as required. They allow you only 5 days to accomplish this. There are No Refunds if you miss this window. April 25th 2016 ( Day 83 of this Odyssey ) I get a Voice Mail stating a Change of Status in my request for Permitting from the Mecklenburg County Sheriifs Office , it further stated I would be notified by E-Mail of the exact changes to date. I saved the Voice Mail and I checked my E-Mail Address of Record with the MCSO and found nothing...past information has always been handled my Text Messaging , as was my confirmation number and Tracking Number for this current transaction. Tonight I check my Secondary E-Mail and nothing is listed there either. Lastly I go to the MCSO website and log into my established account that requires ( A- ) The assigned Tracking Number (B- ) Your Email Address ( C- ) A password that I established. After navigating this garbage I see a cute little sliding scale that shows my account moving from PAID ( 2 Feb 2016 ) the Signing Phase ( 5 Feb 2016 ) to being assigned to a Processor 25 April 2016 Yes Folks...83 Days just to be assigned to a Processor. Prior to the change in laws , assigned to a Processor meant youd' be getting either an E-mail or Text within a week telling you to come to the MCSO to pick up your permit / permits. Frankly since they can't seem to get thier Email or Text notification system to work , I have no idea where I stand in terms of this process concluding? I have said before I know that Nobody is happy with this process. We the Customers are NOT happy Sheriff Carmichael is NOT happy The Sheriff's Staff isn't happy The Local Gun Stores and Independent FFL's sitting on stockpiles of paid for handguns awaiting pick-up are Not happy I know there are behind the scenes things being said in hopes of fixing some of this. I for one do not see the State of North Carolina walking this law back...as they say it's hard if not impossible to Un-Ring a bell. My greatest of hopes in the short term is to insure funding for adequate staffing at all major metroplitan cities/counties that are having timeline difficulties. I think the Mental Healthcare Background facilitator ( Novant Health in Mecklenburg County ) should be bound by contract to accomplish this in no more than 21 days and all approvals rectified in a Net 30 timeline. I think a data base for repeat customers should be established to Fast Track those whom do not require replicated work beyond the timeframe for this purchase to the last. I know my Job Schedule has hindered my attendance at a Conceal Carry class...but as Sheriff Carmichael suggested to me in March , it's in my best interest to do so to dispense with this protracted mess that is obviously geared toward the most casual of gun enthusiasts. I know many states harped about having Cooling Off periods between the decission to buy and the ability to obtain a firearm...but this process boarders on insanity for all affected parties.:thumbdown:
This whole process is B.S.. In Pasquotank it just took me 37 days to renew my CCP. When I went to pick it up she had a stack of about 40. Now I know we are a lot smaller county, but the process time should not be that much different. Mental check still has to be done and that should be about the same for all. Our mental health check is done with the hospitals in the Wake county area. So where is the hold up actually happening? I know people in counties just to the west of us complaining that it is taking over 75 days for a PPP and they are about the same size as is.
GRNC position on Sheriff delays in issuing pistol purchase permits With passage of HB 562 and its attendant removal of several burdensome pistol purchase permit application requirements, legislators attempted to standardize what were then widely variable permit formats. The North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association (NCSA) managed to slip into the bill a requirement that mental health forms be sent to Clerks of Superior Court to certify the applicant has no history of mental incompetence (involuntary commitment, insanity defense, etc). Although sheriffs are now required to issue purchase permits in 14 days, most populous counties are flouting the law, claiming that due to the large influx of gun permit applications after the San Bernardino attack, clerks of court are unable to keep up with applications. Sheriffs are claiming a “better safe than sorry” policy in exceeding the 14 day limit. In Mecklenburg County and elsewhere, for example, applicants are being stalled for more than 90 days. GRNC's position is that because § 14-404 (f) says, “Each applicant for a license or permit shall be informed by the sheriff within 14 days of the date of the application whether the license or permit will be granted or denied and, if granted, the license or permit shall be immediately issued to the applicant”, sheriffs are required to issue permits within 14 days regardless of whether clerks of court respond. In the unlikely event an applicant is determined to be ineligible after permit is issued, it is the sheriff’s obligation to revoke the permit – something on which the NCSA’s own 2014 report shows them as being woefully deficient.1 Moreover, with the passage of Session Laws 2013-369 (HB 937) and 2015-195 (HB 562), sheriffs got what they asked for with improved and timely reporting of mental health adjudications by clerks of court to the National Instant Background Check System (NICS), rendering the submission of mental health forms to clerks of court both unnecessary and redundant. GRNC anticipates that NCSA will lobby for longer issuance times for pistol purchase permits, which we consider tantamount to waiting periods for lawful gun purchasers. GRNC not only vociferously opposes any increase in the 14 day requirement to issue a purchase permit, we advocate repeal, if not of the entire purchase permit law, at least of § 14-404 (e1)(5), which creates a requirement for the mental health form to be submitted to clerks of court. Due to improved reporting to NICS as described above, it is a needless roadblock to qualified applicants. When the General Assembly convenes for the short session on April 25, GRNC will work hard to ensure that both pistol purchase permits and concealed handgun permits are issued on a timely basis. Please subscribe to and monitor GRNC alerts to help us make meaningful changes. 1. “Pistol Purchase Permit Revocations: a Report to the General Assembly,” North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association, August 5, 2014, available at: http://grnc.org/documents/NCSA-PPP-Revocation-Report-2014-FINAL.pdf
A perfect case of how more laws and regulations aren't the answer in most cases. Getting govt out of the way is way more often than not a good thing.
Eagan said: GRNC position on Sheriff delays in issuing pistol purchase permits With passage of HB 562 and its attendant removal of several burdensome pistol purchase permit application requirements, legislators attempted to standardize what were then widely variable permit formats. The North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association (NCSA) managed to slip into the bill a requirement that mental health forms be sent to Clerks of Superior Court to certify the applicant has no history of mental incompetence (involuntary commitment, insanity defense, etc). Although sheriffs are now required to issue purchase permits in 14 days, most populous counties are flouting the law, claiming that due to the large influx of gun permit applications after the San Bernardino attack, clerks of court are unable to keep up with applications. Sheriffs are claiming a “better safe than sorry” policy in exceeding the 14 day limit. In Mecklenburg County and elsewhere, for example, applicants are being stalled for more than 90 days. GRNC's position is that because § 14-404 (f) says, “Each applicant for a license or permit shall be informed by the sheriff within 14 days of the date of the application whether the license or permit will be granted or denied and, if granted, the license or permit shall be immediately issued to the applicant”, sheriffs are required to issue permits within 14 days regardless of whether clerks of court respond. In the unlikely event an applicant is determined to be ineligible after permit is issued, it is the sheriff’s obligation to revoke the permit – something on which the NCSA’s own 2014 report shows them as being woefully deficient.1 Moreover, with the passage of Session Laws 2013-369 (HB 937) and 2015-195 (HB 562), sheriffs got what they asked for with improved and timely reporting of mental health adjudications by clerks of court to the National Instant Background Check System (NICS), rendering the submission of mental health forms to clerks of court both unnecessary and redundant. GRNC anticipates that NCSA will lobby for longer issuance times for pistol purchase permits, which we consider tantamount to waiting periods for lawful gun purchasers. GRNC not only vociferously opposes any increase in the 14 day requirement to issue a purchase permit, we advocate repeal, if not of the entire purchase permit law, at least of § 14-404 (e1)(5), which creates a requirement for the mental health form to be submitted to clerks of court. Due to improved reporting to NICS as described above, it is a needless roadblock to qualified applicants. When the General Assembly convenes for the short session on April 25, GRNC will work hard to ensure that both pistol purchase permits and concealed handgun permits are issued on a timely basis. Please subscribe to and monitor GRNC alerts to help us make meaningful changes. 1. “Pistol Purchase Permit Revocations: a Report to the General Assembly,” North Carolina Sheriffs’ Association, August 5, 2014, available at: http://grnc.org/documents/NCSA-PPP-Revocation-Report-2014-FINAL.pdf Click to expand... The NCSA is NOT going to let the PPP go away. So all these changes will just cause longer waits. A better strategy would be to repeal all the changes and put the law back as it was about 6 years ago. Ronnie
I don't answer to nor care what the NCSA wants. Sheriffs are elected officials. When enough people voters care about repeal, And elected officials take note. Won't matter what they want. Uber liberal Roy Cooper likes to pluck their strings to get his way. We have not forgotten.
I want the guns to be kept out of the hands of Known people with Mental Issues. .sure crazy people will find a way just like known felons will...but neither should be allowed to waltz in to a gun store unabated and walk back out with a handgun . .that's my opinion. Now on the other side of the coin, with all the information that can be obtained about a person in seconds , at worst minutes , there are no excuses for these NCSA imposed cooling off periods we are seeing. If it's the background researchers causing the delay? FIRE THEM. If the Clerk of Courts certification is the issue? Repeal that part or better staff the office. How long does a stamp take once all the information collected pans out ok anyway? Again. .repealing these laws on whole is not likely to happen as there is some good intent behind them...it how they are being handled that should be ruled against. A time frame should be included , a reasonable time frame. . And the CLEO should be mandated to operate within that timeframe. 30 days should be the extreme limit. I prefer 21 days considering the available IT capabilities available.
1stSPWAR said: I think the Mental Healthcare Background facilitator ( Novant Health in Mecklenburg County ) should be bound by contract to accomplish this in no more than 21 days and all approvals rectified in a Net 30 timeline. Click to expand... Why would Novant be blamed for PPP slow downs, the new law is written for "court orders concerning" From the online permit page ... Effective December 1, 2015 North Carolina General Statute 14-404(e1) requires applicants to sign a release of court orders concerning mental health and capacity for pistol purchase permits. After completing the online portion of the application, you MUST come in to the Sheriff’s Office within five (5) business days to complete or provide this release. Click to expand... From NCGS 14-1404(e1) ... (e1) The application for a permit shall be on a form created by the State Bureau of Investigation in consultation with the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association. This application shall be used by all sheriffs and must be provided by the sheriff both electronically and in paper form. Only the following shall be required to be submitted by an applicant for a permit: (1) The permit application developed pursuant to this subsection. (2) Five dollars for each permit requested pursuant to subsection (e) of this section. (3) A government issued identification confirming the identity of the applicant. (4) Proof of residency. (5) A signed release, in a form to be prescribed by the Administrative Office of the Court, that authorizes and requires disclosure to the sheriff of any court orders concerning the mental health or capacity of the applicant to be used for the sole purpose of determining whether the applicant is disqualified to receive a permit pursuant to this section. No additional document or evidence shall be require from any applicant. Click to expand... Novant covers hospitals and doctors ... for CHPs yes but for PPPs it should just be the clerk of the court. By the way the law seems to be written it is court orders that are required not a full search of medical facilities in the county. I know my county and a few others do not go beyond the C of C ...
Ronnie said: The NCSA is NOT going to let the PPP go away. So all these changes will just cause longer waits. A better strategy would be to repeal all the changes and put the law back as it was about 6 years ago. Ronnie Click to expand... Ronnie is correct ... the NCSA will fight tooth and nail on it. It will have to go thru the NC Legislature and then Goobernor's desk. If it was started and it made it through to the Goobernor's desk Good Old Roy is going to be sitting there because McRory is not going to be reelected after this HB2 blow up. Even worse I am not sure that the State Legislature will not lose a lot of seat to liberal leaning State Senators and State Representatives to the point it would even make it to The Goobernor's desk.
Yikes! I haven't bought a PPP since 2012 and now I have my CHP but at that time in Forsyth Co. I walked in and walked out with the permit in maybe 30 minutes. Renewal on CHP is a few years off so maybe they'll change this nonsense.
I will chime in on this issue since I have had a long talk with the representative from Mecklenburg SO, in fact at the end of the conversation my concealed permit was pushed thru, Im pretty sure I should be getting it tomorrow. Anyway, all these issues supposedly are caused by Novant, the law was put in place holding the sheriffs accountable for the 14 day window, but not giving the mental checks any time frame. last month alone in Meck there were 2900 applications for permits. No one is happy about the way things are being handled. That being said, they tried to swing it as yea we have 14 days, but instead of denying all permits because the checks don't come in, we have extended the process. (IMHO if they denied all the permits, they would be so tied up in court, the county would go bankrupt) The hold up is with the records themselves as they are not digital/electronic idk the proper term exactly but there is a law in place that says all mental health records need to become electronic by the end of 2019, which obviously helps no one now. Since the law change Meck has denied 51 permits due to mental health issues, something that wouldn't have happened if said law wasn't in place. My belief is this... the counties that are issuing permits within the 14 days are not waiting for the checks to come back. There is a provision in the law that says.. The sheriff must revoke a purchase permit upon the occurrence of any event or condition that occurs after the issuance of the permit which would render the individual unable to lawfully receive a purchase permit. The sheriff will provide written notice to the permittee that the permit is revoked. This notice will also provide the permittee with information on how to appeal the revocation. Upon receipt of this written notice, the permittee must surrender the permit to the sheriff. Any law enforcement officer serving the notice is authorized to take immediate possession of the permit. If the notice was served on the permittee by means other than a law enforcement officer, the permittee must surrender his/her permit to the sheriff no later than forty- eight (48) hours after service of the notice. Any permittee who fails to do so is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. The permittee may appeal the revocation by petitioning a district court judge of the district where the permittee lives. There is no real verbiage in the law that states that the sheriff must wait for the checks to return, they just need to be run. Now looking at it from their stand point, because of how long its taking, if there is some kind of mental issue and something happens with that gun they just approved, S will HTF, and laws will probably be changed again and become a huge problem for everyone. From what Ive been told everyone is supposed to be at the legislative session today, voicing their issues with this process. Will anything get done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ probably not but heres to hoping!
Again there is no verbiage in the law saying the sheriff needs anything more than the clerk of the court records on mental commitment ... NCGS 14-1404(e1) ... Quote: (e1) The application for a permit shall be on a form created by the State Bureau of Investigation in consultation with the North Carolina Sheriffs' Association. This application shall be used by all sheriffs and must be provided by the sheriff both electronically and in paper form. Only the following shall be required to be submitted by an applicant for a permit: (1) The permit application developed pursuant to this subsection. (2) Five dollars for each permit requested pursuant to subsection (e) of this section. (3) A government issued identification confirming the identity of the applicant. (4) Proof of residency. (5) A signed release, in a form to be prescribed by the Administrative Office of the Court, that authorizes and requires disclosure to the sheriff of any court orders concerning the mental health or capacity of the applicant to be used for the sole purpose of determining whether the applicant is disqualified to receive a permit pursuant to this section. No additional document or evidence shall be require from any applicant. The PPP does not require mental records from hospitals or doctors ... if the sheriff is waiting for those it is his choice.
State law allows up to 10 PPP's at a time. A stronger selling point for getting a CHP. 1 and done.
Do they not realize that there is a huge issue with these permits? The fact that they want to run a mental check today, but then they are good for 5yrs... thats a huge amount of time for things to change. You have 10 permits today.. they don't run your background for 5 years. It seems like it defeats the purpose of the mental check/ background check all together. This is just my humble opinion obviously, but I feel like it defeats the purpose :think:
Moore County is pretty good about turn around time for PPP. But CCW permits are another story. I applied for my CCW on 1/19/16 and I go 4/28/16 to get my fingerprints done. 3.5 months for just the fingerprint appointment. Now only God knows how long the wait will be once I have my fingerprints done.
JamesLewis said: Moore County is pretty good about turn around time for PPP. But CCW permits are another story. I applied for my CCW on 1/19/16 and I go 4/28/16 to get my fingerprints done. 3.5 months for just the fingerprint appointment. Now only God knows how long the wait will be once I have my fingerprints done. Click to expand... I don't understand the appointment for fingerprints thing. How long does it take? I did mine in Moore Country a year plus ago and just walked in with my application in hand and was fingerprinted on the spot. I was in and out in under 10 minutes. I just don't get it. :scratch:
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Current Montgomery County LTCF wait time
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Thread: Current Montgomery County LTCF wait time
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Hey has anyone here applied through the web link provided by the sheriffs office? I am curious of what the current wait time would be. I applied on 2/9 as a new applicant as my old license expired around 3 years ago and I did not know the number to proceed as a renewal. Any insight would be appreciated.
Re: Current Montgomery County LTCF wait time
What's the link and process? Is it supposed to be a fully online process?
I was under the impression when I applied you had to do it all online. Once approved you can then schedule a time to go pick it up at the courthouse. Turns out you can also drop off the application in person which I wish I had done now. My application has said *assigning to processor shortly* since 2/9 which makes me think they can use that outside of the 45 days they are supposed to respond by. Being it hasn*t been *assigned* does that mean they even accepted it yet? Anyway the link is below if interested in doing it all online. https://montgomerypa.permitium.com/ccw/start
Last edited by JLeahy; February 27th, 2021 at 12:17 AM .
Originally Posted by JLeahy I was under the impression when I applied you had to do it all online. Once approved you can then schedule a time to go pick it up at the courthouse. Turns out you can also drop off the application in person which I wish I had done now. My application has said *assigning to processor shortly* since 2/9 which makes me think they can use that outside of the 45 days they are supposed to respond by. Being it hasn*t been *assigned* does that mean they even accepted it yet? Anyway the link is below if interested in doing it all online. https://montgomerypa.permitium.com/ccw/start Technically the 45 day clock starts upon RECEIPT of the application and it not affected by when they dedicate resources to process it. 18 Pa CSA §6109(g) Grant or denial of license.-- Upon the receipt of an application for a license to carry a firearm, the sheriff shall, within 45 days, issue or refuse to issue a license on the basis of the investigation under subsection (d) and the accuracy of the information contained in the application.by when they assign resources to process it.
Just filed my renewal , current expires 01Apr21. Fees ($25.00) collected by Permitium LLC , Pineville, NC. Clock is running!
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Likely going to be well in excess of 45 days...
Joshua Prince, Esq. - Firearms Industry Consulting Group - www.PaFirearmsLawyer.com
Definitely 45+ days! The boy lives in MontCo and it took him forever to get an appointment for his renewal. Applied online and never got a reply. So, he started calling the Sheriff*s office every day leaving messages, which were not returned. Finally, someone answered his call and got his appointment scheduled. So he*s good now. They don*t seem to give a fuck.
I actually got 2 replies. Receipt of payment and acknowledgement my app was received. This will be my 8th time playing this game. I've had a LTCF for over 35yrs , longer than some of the deputy sheriffs checking me out have been alive. We have received your application! Your application for a License to Carry Permit has been received. We will begin working this application as quickly as possible. We process applications in the order received. You will be notified via email as to our progress. You may check our progress by using our Online Order Tracker ( https://montgomerypa.permitium.com/order_tracker ). To access the Order Tracker, you will need your order number (********), email address used during the application process , and the password you created during the application process. During the process of performing all applicable background checks, we may need to contact you to request additional information. We will do so via email, all notifications will also display on the Order Tracker. Once notified that your application had been approved, you will receive a notification by email, phone, and text message (if you chose to receive text messages on the application) with instructions for receiving your permit. If you have paid by credit/debit card, your $25.00 processing and convenience fees have been applied as payment for your permit. Sincerely, Montgomery County Sheriff's Office 2 E Airy St Norristown, PA. 19404 Phone: 610-278-3342
Last edited by abner13; February 28th, 2021 at 07:14 PM .
I appreciate everyone*s feedback and I still have my fingers crossed it*s not in excess of the 45 days. Originally Posted by JAKIII Definitely 45+ days! The boy lives in MontCo and it took him forever to get an appointment for his renewal. Applied online and never got a reply. So, he started calling the Sheriff*s office every day leaving messages, which were not returned. Finally, someone answered his call and got his appointment scheduled. So he*s good now. They don*t seem to give a fuck. Did your son wait the 45 days before he started calling them? I*ve already left a voicemail and sent an email just to confirm but haven*t heard back. My fear is if I bother them too much it may actually slow them down. What a crazy process this is now versus even 7 years ago.
Originally Posted by abner13 I actually got 2 replies. Receipt of payment and acknowledgement my app was received . Originally Posted by JLeahy Did your son wait the 45 days before he started calling them? I*ve already left a voicemail and sent an email just to confirm but haven*t heard back. My fear is if I bother them too much it may actually slow them down. What a crazy process this is now versus even 7 years ago. Contrary to abner, the boy never got any acknowledgement that his renewal application was received... then he started calling at or after 45 days. They did not return his phone messages, but someone finally answered the phone and scheduled his appointment.
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- ksqlDB and Kafka Streams
- Kafka Streams
Streams Architecture ¶
This section describes how Kafka Streams works underneath the covers.
Kafka Streams simplifies application development by building on the Apache Kafka® producer and consumer APIs, and leveraging the native capabilities of Kafka to offer data parallelism, distributed coordination, fault tolerance, and operational simplicity.
Here is the anatomy of an application that uses the Kafka Streams API. It provides a logical view of a Kafka Streams application that contains multiple stream threads, that each contain multiple stream tasks.
To learn how Kafka transactions provide you with accurate, repeatable results from chains of many stream processors or microservices, connected via event streams, see Building Systems Using Transactions in Apache Kafka .
Processor Topology ¶
A processor topology or simply topology defines the stream processing computational logic for your application, i.e., how input data is transformed into output data. A topology is a graph of stream processors (nodes) that are connected by streams (edges) or shared state stores . There are two special processors in the topology:
- Source Processor : A source processor is a special type of stream processor that does not have any upstream processors. It produces an input stream to its topology from one or multiple Kafka topics by consuming records from these topics and forward them to its down-stream processors.
- Sink Processor : A sink processor is a special type of stream processor that does not have down-stream processors. It sends any received records from its up-stream processors to a specified Kafka topic.
A stream processing application – i.e., your application – may define one or more such topologies, though typically it defines only one. Developers can define topologies either via the low-level Processor API or via the Kafka Streams DSL , which builds on top of the former.
A processor topology is merely a logical abstraction for your stream processing code. At runtime, the logical topology is instantiated and replicated inside the application for parallel processing (see Parallelism Model ).
Parallelism Model ¶
Stream partitions and tasks ¶.
The messaging layer of Kafka partitions data for storing and transporting it. Kafka Streams partitions data for processing it. In both cases, this partitioning is what enables data locality, elasticity, scalability, high performance, and fault tolerance.
Kafka Streams uses the concepts of stream partitions and stream tasks as logical units of its parallelism model. There are close links between Kafka Streams and Kafka in the context of parallelism:
- Each stream partition is a totally ordered sequence of data records and maps to a Kafka topic partition .
- A data record in the stream maps to a Kafka message from that topic.
- The keys of data records determine the partitioning of data in both Kafka and Kafka Streams, i.e., how data is routed to specific partitions within topics.
An application’s processor topology is scaled by breaking it into multiple stream tasks. More specifically, Kafka Streams creates a fixed number of stream tasks based on the input stream partitions for the application, with each task being assigned a list of partitions from the input streams (i.e., Kafka topics). The assignment of stream partitions to stream tasks never changes , hence the stream task is a fixed unit of parallelism of the application. Tasks can then instantiate their own processor topology based on the assigned partitions; they also maintain a buffer for each of its assigned partitions and process input data one-record-at-a-time from these record buffers. As a result stream tasks can be processed independently and in parallel without manual intervention.
Slightly simplified, the maximum parallelism at which your application may run is bounded by the maximum number of stream tasks, which itself is determined by maximum number of partitions of the input topic(s) the application is reading from. For example, if your input topic has 5 partitions, then you can run up to 5 applications instances. These instances will collaboratively process the topic’s data. If you run a larger number of app instances than partitions of the input topic, the “excess” app instances will launch but remain idle; however, if one of the busy instances goes down, one of the idle instances will resume the former’s work. We provide a more detailed explanation and example in the FAQ.
Sub-topologies (also called sub-graphs): If there are multiple processor topologies specified in a Kafka Streams application, each task only instantiates one of the topologies for processing. In addition, a single processor topology may be decomposed into independent sub-topologies (or sub-graphs). A sub-topology is a set of processors, that are all transitively connected as parent/child or via state stores in the topology. Hence, different sub-topologies exchange data via topics and don’t share any state stores. Each task may instantiate only one such sub-topology for processing. This further scales out the computational workload to multiple tasks.
Two tasks each assigned with one partition of the input streams. ¶
It is important to understand that Kafka Streams is not a resource manager, but a library that “runs” anywhere its stream processing application runs. Multiple instances of the application are executed either on the same machine, or spread across multiple machines and tasks can be distributed automatically by the library to those running application instances. The assignment of partitions to tasks never changes; if an application instance fails, all its assigned tasks will be restarted on other instances and continue to consume from the same stream partitions.
Topic partitions are assigned to tasks, and tasks are assigned to all threads over all instances, in a best-effort attempt to trade off load-balancing and stickiness of stateful tasks. For this assignment, Kafka Streams uses the StreamsPartitionAssignor class and doesn’t let you change to a different assignor. If you try to use a different assignor, Kafka Streams ignores it.
Threading Model ¶
Kafka Streams allows the user to configure the number of threads that the library can use to parallelize processing within an application instance. Each thread can execute one or more stream tasks with their processor topologies independently.
One stream thread running two stream tasks. ¶
Starting more stream threads or more instances of the application merely amounts to replicating the topology and having it process a different subset of Kafka partitions, effectively parallelizing processing. It is worth noting that there is no shared state amongst the threads, so no inter-thread coordination is necessary. This makes it very simple to run topologies in parallel across the application instances and threads. The assignment of Kafka topic partitions amongst the various stream threads is transparently handled by Kafka Streams leveraging Kafka’s server-side coordination functionality.
As we described above, scaling your stream processing application with Kafka Streams is easy: you merely need to start additional instances of your application, and Kafka Streams takes care of distributing partitions across stream tasks that run in the application instances. You can start as many threads of the application as there are input Kafka topic partitions so that, across all running instances of an application, every thread (or rather, the stream tasks that the thread executes) has at least one input partition to process.
As of Kafka 2.8 you can scale stream threads much in the same way that you can scale your Kafka Streams clients. Simply add or remove stream threads and Kafka Streams takes care of redistributing the partitions. You may also add threads to replace stream threads that have died, eliminating the need to restart clients to recover the number of running threads.
To understand the parallelism model that Kafka Streams offers, let’s walk through an example.
Imagine a Kafka Streams application that consumes from two topics, A and B , with each having 3 partitions. If we now start the application on a single machine with the number of threads configured to 2, we end up with two stream threads instance1-thread1 and instance1-thread2 . Kafka Streams will break this topology into three tasks because the maximum number of partitions across the input topics A and B is max(3, 3) == 3 , and then distribute the six input topic partitions evenly across these three tasks; in this case, each task will process records from one partition of each input topic, for a total of two input partitions per task. Finally, these three tasks will be spread evenly – to the extent this is possible – across the two available threads, which in this example means that the first thread will run 2 tasks (consuming from 4 partitions) and the second thread will run 1 task (consuming from 2 partitions).
Now imagine we want to scale out this application later on, perhaps because the data volume has increased significantly. We decide to start running the same application but with only a single thread on another, different machine. A new thread instance2-thread1 will be created, and input partitions will be re-assigned similar to:
When the re-assignment occurs, some partitions – and hence their corresponding tasks including any local state stores – will be “migrated” from the existing threads to the newly added threads (here, stream task 2 from instance1-thread1 on the first machine was migrated to instance2-thread1 on the second machine). As a result, Kafka Streams has effectively rebalanced the workload among instances of the application at the granularity of Kafka topic partitions.
What if we wanted to add even more instances of the same application? We can do so until a certain point, which is when the number of running instances is equal to the number of available input partitions to read from. At this point, before it would make sense to start further application instances, we would first need to increase the number of partitions for topics A and B; otherwise, we would over-provision the application, ending up with idle instances that are waiting for partitions to be assigned to them, which may never happen.
Kafka Streams provides so-called state stores , which can be used by stream processing applications to store and query data, which is an important capability when implementing stateful operations . The Kafka Streams DSL , for example, automatically creates and manages such state stores when you are calling stateful operators such as count() or aggregate() , or when you are windowing a stream .
Every stream task in a Kafka Streams application may embed one or more local state stores that can be accessed via APIs to store and query data required for processing. These state stores can either be a RocksDB database, an in-memory hash map, or another convenient data structure. Kafka Streams offers fault-tolerance and automatic recovery for local state stores.
Two stream tasks with their dedicated local state stores ¶
A Kafka Streams application is typically running on many application instances . Because Kafka Streams partitions the data for processing it , an application’s entire state is spread across the local state stores of the application’s running instances. The Kafka Streams API lets you work with an application’s state stores both locally (e.g., on the level of an instance of the application) as well as in its entirety (on the level of the “logical” application), for example through stateful operations such as count() or through Interactive Queries .
Memory management ¶
Record caches ¶.
With Kafka Streams, you can specify the total memory (RAM) size that is used for an instance of a processing topology. This memory is used for internal caching and compacting of records before they are written to state stores, or forwarded downstream to other nodes. These caches differ slightly in implementation in the DSL and Processor API .
The specified cache size is divided equally among the Kafka Stream threads of a topology. Memory is shared over all threads per instance. Each thread maintains a memory pool accessible by its tasks’ processor nodes for caching. Specifically, this is used by stateful processor nodes that perform aggregates and thus have a state store.
The cache has three functions. First, it serves as a read cache to speed up reading data from a state store. Second, it serves as a write-back buffer for a state store. A write-back cache allows for batching multiple records instead of sending each record individually to the state store. It also reduces the number of requests going to a state store (and its changelog topic stored in Kafka if it is a persistent state store) because records with the same key are compacted in cache. Third, the write-back cache reduces the number of records going to downstream processor nodes as well.
Thus, without requiring you to invoke any explicit processing operators in the API, these caches allow you to make trade-off decisions between:
- When using smaller cache sizes: larger rate of downstream updates with shorter intervals between updates.
- When using larger cache sizes: smaller rate of downstream updates with larger intervals between updates. Typically, this results reduced network IO to Kafka and reduced local disk IO to RocksDB-backed state stores, for example.
The final computation results are identical regardless of the cache size (including a disabled cache), which means it is safe to enable or disable the cache. It is not possible to predict when or how updates will be compacted because this depends on many factors, including:
- Cache size.
- Characteristics of the data being processed.
- Configuration parameters, for example commit.interval.ms .
For more information, see Kafka Streams Memory Management in the Developer Guide.
Fault Tolerance ¶
Kafka Streams builds on fault-tolerance capabilities integrated natively within Kafka. Kafka partitions are highly available and replicated; so when stream data is persisted to Kafka it is available even if the application fails and needs to re-process it. Tasks in Kafka Streams leverage the fault-tolerance capability offered by the Kafka consumer client to handle failures. If a task runs on a machine that fails, Kafka Streams automatically restarts the task in one of the remaining running instances of the application.
In addition, Kafka Streams makes sure that the local state stores are robust to failures, too. For each state store, it maintains a replicated changelog Kafka topic in which it tracks any state updates. These changelog topics are partitioned as well so that each local state store instance, and hence the task accessing the store, has its own dedicated changelog topic partition. Log compaction is enabled on the changelog topics so that old data can be purged safely to prevent the topics from growing indefinitely. If tasks run on a machine that fails and are restarted on another machine, Kafka Streams guarantees to restore their associated state stores to the content before the failure by replaying the corresponding changelog topics prior to resuming the processing on the newly started tasks. As a result, failure handling is completely transparent to the end user.
Optimization: The cost of task (re)initialization typically depends primarily on the time for restoring the state by replaying the state stores’ associated changelog topics. To minimize this restoration time, you can configure your applications to have standby replicas of local states, which are fully replicated copies of the state. When a task migration happens, Kafka Streams assigns a task to an application instance where such a standby replica already exists, to minimize the task (re)initialization cost. For more information, see num.standby.replicas at Optional configuration parameters in the Developer Guide. Starting in 2.6, Kafka Streams guarantees that a task is assigned to an instance with a fully caught-up local copy of the state exists, if such an instance exists. Standby tasks increase the likelihood that a caught-up instance exists in the case of a failure.
The restore consumer is also used for standby tasks.
Local State Consistency ¶
When state is updated, it’s written to a local state store and to an internal changelog topic. Kafka Streams keeps the changelog topic and local state in sync.
Exactly Once Semantics (EOS) ¶
If Exactly Once Semantics (EOS) is enabled and the local state diverges from the changelog topic, Kafka Streams deletes the state store and rebuilds it from the changelog.
If a write to the changelog fails for a retriable reason, Kafka Streams keeps trying to write, but if it fails fatally, it crashes and on restart detects that the state store is “ahead” of the latest offset in the changelog, or it may detect an unclean shutdown, indicating dirty state. Kafka Streams proceeds to rebuild state from the changelog.
Kafka Streams knows what changelog offset is represented in the state store by using a client-local “checkpoint file” that stores metadata only. This checkpoint file is present only when Kafka Streams knows that the state is consistent with the changelog.
When Kafka Streams detects an inconsistency, the entire state store is discarded and rebuilt from the changelog, which can be expensive but occurs rarely. This can occur if Kafka Streams crashes during processing, or if the brokers enter a bad state and are unable to accept writes. A similar process of building the state store from scratch also can happen on rebalance, for example, if a task moves to a node that didn’t previously host it.
At-least-once Semantics (ALOS) ¶
For the non-EOS case, Kafka Streams may have “dirty” writes, and no state rebuild is attempted, because this is what the at-least-once processing guarantees provides.
With non-EOS, Kafka Streams only ensures that the store is flushed to disk, and the changelogs write to Kafka before Kafka Streams commits the corresponding offsets and before it updates the checkpoint file.
If there is an error between two commits, Kafka Streams re-uses the state store and changelog topic as-is. Before data processing resumes, it replays the tail of the changelog, which means that Kafka Streams reads the changelog from the checkpointed offsets to its end. This guarantees that any writes to the changelog topic are also in the store and keeps both in sync.
Flow Control with Timestamps ¶
Kafka Streams regulates the progress of streams by the timestamps of data records by attempting to synchronize all source streams in terms of time. By default, Kafka Streams will provide your application with event-time processing semantics . This is important especially when an application is processing multiple streams (i.e., Kafka topics) with a large amount of historical data. For example, a user may want to re-process past data in case the business logic of an application was changed significantly, e.g. to fix a bug in an analytics algorithm. Now it is easy to retrieve a large amount of past data from Kafka; however, without proper flow control, the processing of the data across topic partitions may become out-of-sync and produce incorrect results.
As mentioned in the Concepts section, each data record in Kafka Streams is associated with a timestamp. Based on the timestamps of the records in its stream record buffer, stream tasks determine the next assigned partition to process among all its input streams. However, Kafka Streams does not reorder records within a single stream for processing since reordering would break the delivery semantics of Kafka and make it difficult to recover in the face of failure. This flow control is best-effort because it is not always possible to strictly enforce execution order across streams by record timestamp; in fact, in order to enforce strict execution ordering, one must either wait until the system has received all the records from all streams (which may be quite infeasible in practice) or inject additional information about timestamp boundaries or heuristic estimates such as MillWheel’s watermarks .
Kafka Streams does not use a backpressure mechanism because it does not need one. Using a depth-first processing strategy, each record consumed from Kafka will go through the whole processor (sub-)topology for processing and for (possibly) being written back to Kafka before the next record will be processed. As a result, no records are being buffered in-memory between two connected stream processors. Also, Kafka Streams leverages Kafka’s consumer client behind the scenes, which works with a pull-based messaging model that allows downstream processors to control the pace at which incoming data records are being read.
The same applies to the case of a processor topology that contains multiple independent sub-topologies, which will be processed independently from each other (cf. Parallelism Model ). For example, the following code defines a topology with two independent sub-topologies:
Any data exchange between sub-topologies will happen through Kafka, i.e. there is no direct data exchange (in the example above, data would be exchanged through the topic “my-topic”). For this reason there is no need for a backpressure mechanism in this scenario, too.
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